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VCS Account Request: nicolasgrekas

php.internals

Nicolas Grekas

6 years ago
Be able to vote as an active PHP community member.

PHP Group

6 years ago
VCS Account Rejected: nicolasgrekas rejected by salathe /o\

Nicolas Grekas

6 years ago
Le mar. 14 janv. 2020 à 13:20, PHP Group <group@php.net> a écrit :
> VCS Account Rejected: nicolasgrekas rejected by salathe /o\ >
So, what's the process to get a vote now? Do I need sponsor? Something else?

Peter Cowburn

6 years ago
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 at 12:27, Nicolas Grekas <nicolas.grekas+php@gmail.com> wrote:
> Le mar. 14 janv. 2020 à 13:20, PHP Group <group@php.net> a écrit : > > > VCS Account Rejected: nicolasgrekas rejected by salathe /o\ > > > > So, what's the process to get a vote now? > Do I need sponsor? Something else? >
Hi, While the notion of community representative votes was documented at the time of the RFC process introduction, it is not something that is supported by the project. Please become an active contributor to this project: in particular active enough to get yourself a PHP.net VCS account. One of the (many!) benefits of doing so is being granted RFC voting privileges. Regards, Peter

Brent

6 years ago
Hi Peter Isn't it strange that someone like Nicolas doesn't get a vote? Symfony has such a large impact on the PHP community, and Nicolas has such a large impact on its development. Meanwhile people who contribute to the PHP docs, sometimes completely estranged from modern day-to-day PHP development do have a vote. What are the rules here? According to the wiki it's this:
> There's no way around this 'small' issue. Changes made to the PHP language will affect millions of people, and theoretically, each and every one of them should have a say in what we do. For obvious reasons, though, this isn't a practical approach. > > The proposal here is for two audiences to participate in the voting process: > > • People with php.net VCS accounts that have contributed code to PHP > • Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with php.net VCS accounts > • Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, etc.) > • regular participant of internals discussions
I would think Nicolas' application would at least require a vote before being denied? Kind regards Brent

Unnamed Person

6 years ago
1. The main issue is that the clause for representatives from the PHP community was never fleshed out. In particular: - Which frameworks, cms, tools, etc qualify and what constitutes a lead developer? - How will those with php.net choose these representatives? If it's by vote, what is the required participation and minimum percentage of "yes" votes required? 2. It's pretty easy to get a PHP.net account, by the way. I think this is partly why nobody has cared enough to deal with the politics of this; if the member wants to vote they can get an account through the quite low bar of contributing a few improvements to our docs or website. To help expedite the process, I recommend visiting the PHP chat room on StackOverflow where quite a few people with internals knowledge (and importantly, can merge contributions) hang out. If you want to hack on the PHP.net website, I can show you plenty of warts that need cleaned up; just ask. 3. Lastly and off topic, I want more contributors to internals or extensions. Having had to deal with the guts and semantics of the language helps people understand all sorts of details that are important that regular PHP users don't understand. I'm not against having voters who aren't skilled in internals; it's just that the balance already seems off to me.

Paul M. Jones

6 years ago
(Copied from my Reddit comment earlier today.)
> On Jan 14, 2020, at 08:15, Brent Roose <brendt@stitcher.io> wrote: > > Hi Peter > > Isn't it strange that someone like Nicolas doesn't get a vote? Symfony has such a large impact on the PHP community, and Nicolas has such a large impact on its development. Meanwhile people who contribute to the PHP docs, sometimes completely estranged from modern day-to-day PHP development do have a vote.
Having high status in *one* community, does not necessarily transfer to having high status in *another* community (even if it's a *related* community.) So, the way to get voting rights on Internals is to actually contribute something to Internals -- whether code or docs. There has to be *some* barrier to to pass, that is specific to that community.
-- Paul M. Jones pmjones@pmjones.io http://paul-m-jones.com Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP https://leanpub.com/mlaphp Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP https://leanpub.com/sn1php

Pierre Joye

6 years ago
On Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 8:08 PM Peter Cowburn <salathe@php.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 at 12:27, Nicolas Grekas <nicolas.grekas+php@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > Le mar. 14 janv. 2020 à 13:20, PHP Group <group@php.net> a écrit : > > > > > VCS Account Rejected: nicolasgrekas rejected by salathe /o\ > > > > > > > So, what's the process to get a vote now? > > Do I need sponsor? Something else? > > > > Hi, > > While the notion of community representative votes was documented at the > time of the RFC process introduction, it is not something that is supported > by the project. > Please become an active contributor to this project: in particular active > enough to get yourself a PHP.net VCS account. One of the (many!) benefits > of doing so is being granted RFC voting privileges. >
Nicolas is an active contributor. There is no debate here. As of questioning the overall active contributor or not, this is a valid debate to have but this is a fully separate discussion and I see no reason to reject Nicolas request.

Joe Watkins

6 years ago
I just want it to be noted that I requested that the decision is reconsidered also. I think, plain and simple, a mistake has been made. Cheers Joe On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 10:40, Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com> wrote:

Pierre Joye

6 years ago
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 4:47 PM Joe Watkins <krakjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I just want it to be noted that I requested that the decision is reconsidered also. > > I think, plain and simple, a mistake has been made.
I agree that a real discussion should happen. So whoever else feels this way as well, feel free to start a RFC discussion about it. This thread is however not the place for it for the reasons explained earlier. I however disagree that Nicolas request should be rejected. this is wrong in many levels. best,
-- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org

Pierre Joye

6 years ago
Good afternoon, What a bold rejection, a bit surprising. For one, there is a consensus on key community having a vote right since we introduced rfc. We have been more strict but the consensus remains. Secondly, yes, being an active contributor makes it amazingly easier to actually have a vote, de facto. Which brings me to why we rejected Nicolas request. Nicolas has contributed, and is contributing. Countless on spot bugs reports, working on rfc, and working these days on actually providing patches for new features. So I kindly ask to accept his request and if anyone has issues about non (lot of)code contributors being to vote, then bring it on via a rfc and let us take a decision from there. But blocking Nicolas is not a good move as of now best, On Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 7:20 PM PHP Group <group@php.net> wrote:

Nicolas Grekas

6 years ago
Le mer. 15 janv. 2020 à 08:36, Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com> a écrit :
> Good afternoon, > > What a bold rejection, a bit surprising. > > For one, there is a consensus on key community having a vote right since we > introduced rfc. We have been more strict but the consensus remains. > > Secondly, yes, being an active contributor makes it amazingly easier to > actually have a vote, de facto. > > Which brings me to why we rejected Nicolas request. Nicolas has > contributed, and is contributing. Countless on spot bugs reports, working > on rfc, and working these days on actually providing patches for new > features. > > So I kindly ask to accept his request and if anyone has issues about non > (lot of)code contributors being to vote, then bring it on via a rfc and let > us take a decision from there. But blocking Nicolas is not a good move as > of now > > best, > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 7:20 PM PHP Group <group@php.net> wrote: > > > VCS Account Rejected: nicolasgrekas rejected by salathe /o\ > > > > -- > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > >
Thank you Pierre. I very much look forward to the rejection being reconsidered. Note that contrary to what is suggested in another subthread, I'm not seeking for a community representative mandate nor justifying my request by my supposed "status" in userland PHP. I did not mention Symfony in my application because this has nothing to do with it, please don't make it a "Symfony wants a seat" discussion. Yes, I'm making it personal, because it is: I'm asking on my own personal behalf, as a free and independent soul and mind. My involvement in PHP itself pre-dates anything else I've done in the OSS space by more than 10 years, here are my first bug reports, back in 2002, PHP 4.1 <https://bugs.php.net/search.php?search_for=&boolean=0&limit=30&order_by=&direction=DESC&cmd=display&status=All&bug_type=All&project=All&php_os=&phpver=&cve_id=&assign=&author_email=okin7+at+yahoo+dot+fr&bug_age=0&bug_updated=0&commented_by=>. Since then I've reported apparently 60 bug reports <https://bugs.php.net/search.php?cmd=display&author_email=nicolas.grekas%2Bphp%40gmail.com&order_by=ts2&direction=DESC&limit=30&status=All&reorder_by=ts2> and contributed to many others <https://bugs.php.net/search.php?search_for=&boolean=0&limit=30&order_by=&direction=DESC&cmd=display&status=All&bug_type=All&project=All&php_os=&phpver=&cve_id=&assign=&author_email=&bug_age=0&bug_updated=0&commented_by=nicolas.grekas%2Bphp%40gmail.com> . Of course, I'm also involved in userland PHP and I think that's an integral part of my application. I can give you some track records on the topic if you want, everything is public. If participating in discussions on php-internals counts, I apparently contributed 177 times here <https://marc.info/?l=php-internals&r=6&s=grekas&q=b&w=4>, the first message in 2010. Since contributing to the source code is also nice to accredit my request, I do own some commits in the git history <https://github.com/php/php-src/commits?author=nicolas-grekas>. That's a ridiculously low number of them I agree. Many will consider life itself as ridiculous, so I'm still proud of them, very modestly. And of course, I've got this pending PR/to-be-RFC <https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/5083> showing I'm not going to stop here. But if that's not enough, what's the bar? Who else passed this scrutiny? Thanks, Nicolas

Benjamin Morel

6 years ago
I've been actually surprised by the rejection myself, especially considering that @ocramius, whose profile seems similar to Nicolas', already has a seat. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for @ocramius and all of his work on PHP open-source projects, but he doesn't seem to have contributed a lot to the PHP source code itself neither: https://github.com/php/php-src/commits?author=ocramius So I always thought, well of course he has a vote as an influent member of the userland library developer community, and this is healthy. And there should be more of them. But then why not give a vote to Nicolas as well, given his huge contributions to userland PHP projects, and his occasional contributions to PHP itself? Something does not seem right here. — Benjamin

Peter Cowburn

6 years ago
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 09:33, Nicolas Grekas <nicolas.grekas+php@gmail.com> wrote:
> Le mer. 15 janv. 2020 à 08:36, Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com> a écrit > : > > > Good afternoon, > > > > What a bold rejection, a bit surprising. > > > > For one, there is a consensus on key community having a vote right since > we > > introduced rfc. We have been more strict but the consensus remains. > > > > Secondly, yes, being an active contributor makes it amazingly easier to > > actually have a vote, de facto. > > > > Which brings me to why we rejected Nicolas request. Nicolas has > > contributed, and is contributing. Countless on spot bugs reports, working > > on rfc, and working these days on actually providing patches for new > > features. > > > > So I kindly ask to accept his request and if anyone has issues about non > > (lot of)code contributors being to vote, then bring it on via a rfc and > let > > us take a decision from there. But blocking Nicolas is not a good move as > > of now > > > > best, > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 7:20 PM PHP Group <group@php.net> wrote: > > > > > VCS Account Rejected: nicolasgrekas rejected by salathe /o\ > > > > > > -- > > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Pierre. > > I very much look forward to the rejection being reconsidered. >
Firstly, I apologise for the rash decision and rejection, and any offence caused to you as a result. I made a mistake and it won't happen again. I will no longer handle any account requests outside of the docs team. Please re-submit the VCS account request and we can all move forward from there.

Gabriel Caruso

6 years ago
Hello, I'd like some explanation of why this happened. Nicolas has already contributed to PHP, see (his pull requests)[1], as well (his comments)[2] and as he has an RFC idea (regardless if it's going to be approved or not), we should encourage that. [1]: https://github.com/php/php-src/pulls/nicolas-grekas [2]: https://github.com/php/php-src/pulls?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+commenter%3Anicolas-grekas+ Best regards, -- Gabriel Caruso On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 at 13:20, PHP Group <group@php.net> wrote: