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Who are the current eligible voters?

php.internals

Paul M. Jones

6 years ago
Hi all, Apropos the Nicolas Grekas discussion on this list ... <https://externals.io/message/108111> ... and on Reddit ... <https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/eoltx1/nicolas_grekas_application_to_vote_on_rfcs/> ... I began to wonder who all is eligible to vote. Looking at people.php.net to see who has karma appears insufficient. For example, Ocramius <https://people.php.net/ocramius> has no karma but is eligible to vote; Fabien Potencier has voted as well but has no people.php.net page. So: is there a public listing of, or public code for deriving the list of, currently eligible voters?
-- Paul M. Jones pmjones@pmjones.io http://paul-m-jones.com Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP https://leanpub.com/mlaphp Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP https://leanpub.com/sn1php

Ben Ramsey

6 years ago
> On Jan 15, 2020, at 13:19, Paul M. Jones <pmjones@pmjones.io> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Apropos the Nicolas Grekas discussion on this list ... > > <https://externals.io/message/108111> > > ... and on Reddit ... > > <https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/eoltx1/nicolas_grekas_application_to_vote_on_rfcs/> > > ... I began to wonder who all is eligible to vote. > > Looking at people.php.net to see who has karma appears insufficient. For example, Ocramius <https://people.php.net/ocramius> has no karma but is eligible to vote; Fabien Potencier has voted as well but has no people.php.net page. > > So: is there a public listing of, or public code for deriving the list of, currently eligible voters?
Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is here: https://people.php.net/ -Ben

Paul M. Jones

6 years ago
> On Jan 15, 2020, at 13:21, Ben Ramsey <ben@benramsey.com> wrote: > > Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is here: https://people.php.net/
I don't think that's *quite* the case? As has been noted elsewhere, the rules are:
> • People with php.net VCS accounts that have contributed code to PHP > • Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with php.net VCS accounts > • Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, etc.) > • regular participant of internals discussions
It's clear that the second point has not really taken hold, but the first point adds the caveat "that have contributed code to PHP", and that part *does* seem widely accepted. So unless I am wrong, merely having a php.net account doesn't appear sufficient -- code or docs contributions are an additional prerequisite to getting a vote. Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as "having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote" ?
-- Paul M. Jones pmjones@pmjones.io http://paul-m-jones.com Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP https://leanpub.com/mlaphp Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP https://leanpub.com/sn1php

Ben Ramsey

6 years ago
> On Jan 15, 2020, at 14:02, Paul M. Jones <pmjones@pmjones.io> wrote: > > > >> On Jan 15, 2020, at 13:21, Ben Ramsey <ben@benramsey.com> wrote: >> >> Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is here: https://people.php.net/ > > I don't think that's *quite* the case? As has been noted elsewhere, the rules are: > >> • People with php.net VCS accounts that have contributed code to PHP >> • Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with php.net VCS accounts >> • Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, etc.) >> • regular participant of internals discussions > > It's clear that the second point has not really taken hold, but the first point adds the caveat "that have contributed code to PHP", and that part *does* seem widely accepted. > > So unless I am wrong, merely having a php.net account doesn't appear sufficient -- code or docs contributions are an additional prerequisite to getting a vote. > > Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as "having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote” ?
I wasn’t answering based on the rules. My answer is based on practice. AFAIK, everyone with a php.net account also has access to the wiki (you log into the wiki using your php.net account), and therefore, also has the ability to vote on RFCs. Maybe there are some who have access to the wiki without a php.net account, and maybe there are some who can access the wiki who can’t vote. Whomever has admin access on the wiki can provide more information. -Ben

Paul M. Jones

6 years ago
> On Jan 15, 2020, at 14:12, Ben Ramsey <ben@benramsey.com> wrote: > >> Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as "having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote” ? > > I wasn’t answering based on the rules. My answer is based on practice.
Sure, though that practice has to be codified *somewhere*, otherwise there'd be no way for the wiki voting plugin to figure out who's allowed to vote.
> AFAIK, everyone with a php.net account also has access to the wiki (you log into the wiki using your php.net account), and therefore, also has the ability to vote on RFCs.
"As far as you know" is fine, but it would be nice to hear something more authoritative ...
> Whomever has admin access on the wiki can provide more information.
... as you note. Can anyone besides Ben provide some insight here, perhaps even point to the code that determines if a wiki user is allowed to vote?
-- Paul M. Jones pmjones@pmjones.io http://paul-m-jones.com Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP https://leanpub.com/mlaphp Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP https://leanpub.com/sn1php

Larry Garfield

6 years ago
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Ben Ramsey wrote:
> > On Jan 15, 2020, at 14:02, Paul M. Jones <pmjones@pmjones.io> wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Jan 15, 2020, at 13:21, Ben Ramsey <ben@benramsey.com> wrote: > >> > >> Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is here: https://people.php.net/ > > > > I don't think that's *quite* the case? As has been noted elsewhere, the rules are: > > > >> • People with php.net VCS accounts that have contributed code to PHP > >> • Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with php.net VCS accounts > >> • Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, etc.) > >> • regular participant of internals discussions > > > > It's clear that the second point has not really taken hold, but the first point adds the caveat "that have contributed code to PHP", and that part *does* seem widely accepted. > > > > So unless I am wrong, merely having a php.net account doesn't appear sufficient -- code or docs contributions are an additional prerequisite to getting a vote. > > > > Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as "having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote” ? > > > I wasn’t answering based on the rules. My answer is based on practice. > AFAIK, everyone with a php.net account also has access to the wiki (you > log into the wiki using your php.net account), and therefore, also has > the ability to vote on RFCs. > > Maybe there are some who have access to the wiki without a php.net > account, and maybe there are some who can access the wiki who can’t > vote. Whomever has admin access on the wiki can provide more > information. > > -Ben > > Attachments: > * signature.asc
FTR, I have Wiki access (I was able to write a pre-RFC) but I have no voting access. Whatever the mechanism is, there is a separate setting. --Larry Garfield

Nikita Popov

6 years ago
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 9:03 PM Paul M. Jones <pmjones@pmjones.io> wrote:
> > > > On Jan 15, 2020, at 13:21, Ben Ramsey <ben@benramsey.com> wrote: > > > > Everyone with a php.net account is able to vote. The public list is > here: https://people.php.net/ > > I don't think that's *quite* the case? As has been noted elsewhere, the > rules are: > > > • People with php.net VCS accounts that have contributed code to PHP > > • Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those > with php.net VCS accounts > > • Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, > etc.) > > • regular participant of internals discussions > > It's clear that the second point has not really taken hold, but the first > point adds the caveat "that have contributed code to PHP", and that part > *does* seem widely accepted. > > So unless I am wrong, merely having a php.net account doesn't appear > sufficient -- code or docs contributions are an additional prerequisite to > getting a vote. > > Ben (and others) -- your thoughts? Is it really as straightforward as > "having a php.net account alone is enough to be eligible to vote" ? >
Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28 users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I *think* means they can also vote. Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like 30. If it's something very controversial, maybe 100. People aren't kidding when they say it's easy to get an RFC vote -- but in reality, there's simply very little interest ;) Regards, Nikita

Paul M. Jones

6 years ago
Hi --
> On Jan 15, 2020, at 14:15, Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com> wrote: > > Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28 > users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I *think* means they can > also vote.
Ah, very good -- thanks for that!
-- Paul M. Jones pmjones@pmjones.io http://paul-m-jones.com Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP https://leanpub.com/mlaphp Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP https://leanpub.com/sn1php

Mike Schinkel

6 years ago
> On Jan 15, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com> wrote: > > Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for > voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like > 30. If it's something very controversial, maybe 100.
Wow. From a participation standpoint that seems pretty pathetic. If 30 is the average that means most people never vote. I would have assumed that having a vote would mean that people would be expected to vote periodically or if not then loose the privilege. #jmtcw -Mike

Olumide Samson

6 years ago
From: Mike Schinkel Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:23 PM To: Nikita Popov Cc: PHP Internals List Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Who are the current eligible voters?
> On Jan 15, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com> wrote: > > Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for > voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like > 30. If it's something very controversial, maybe 100.
Wow. From a participation standpoint that seems pretty pathetic. If 30 is the average that means most people never vote. I would have assumed that having a vote would mean that people would be expected to vote periodically or if not then loose the privilege. #jmtcw -Mike
-- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Maybe this should be the case? Not voting within 6 months or 12 months on a single RFC would mean you’ve either moved on with your life and lost the voting right… I think that’s similar to parliament systems… You stop having a senator vote as soon as you leave the senate(doing something else with your life), you can pick it up whenever you’re back to be active… --- Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Unnamed Person

6 years ago
We are predominantly volunteers, and should keep that in mind for these kinds of things. In my opinion, a timeline of 6 months is definitely too short. Maybe something like 3 years would be more appropriate. And if we do remove stale voting privileges it should be easy to get them back again, and should not generally be met with resistance. If someone has contributed before, we should be happy to have them back. And all of this doesn't really matter that much; as Nikita pointed out it is pretty easy to get an account, and most people simply don't care to vote.

Paul M. Jones

6 years ago
> On Jan 15, 2020, at 16:58, Levi Morrison via internals <internals@lists.php.net> wrote: > > We are predominantly volunteers, and should keep that in mind for > these kinds of things.
Hear, hear.
-- Paul M. Jones pmjones@pmjones.io http://paul-m-jones.com Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP https://leanpub.com/mlaphp Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP https://leanpub.com/sn1php

tyson andre

6 years ago

Daniel Rodrigues Lima

6 years ago
Some good ideas are being clarified in this thread, i would highlight: “- One-time notifications about this and other information on contributing when logging into pecl, bugs.php.net, the wiki, or other subdomains (e.g. "Did you know?" dialog boxes) - Links to the same thing included in emails when creating new accounts” mentioned by Tyson Andre. Obter o Outlook para iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ De: tyson andre <tysonandre775@hotmail.com> Enviado: Thursday, January 16, 2020 12:02:24 AM Para: Olumide Samson <oludonsexy@gmail.com>; Mike Schinkel <mike@newclarity.net>; Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com> Cc: PHP Internals List <internals@lists.php.net> Assunto: Re: [PHP-DEV] Who are the current eligible voters?
> Wow. From a participation standpoint that seems pretty pathetic. If 30 is the average that means most people never vote. > > I would have assumed that having a vote would mean that people would be expected to vote periodically or if not then loose the privilege.
How many of the 1900 are aware that they're eligible to vote? (a few hundred? could probably count the unique voters) Discussions mentioning details of the RFC voting eligibility itself (e.g. this thread) are probably rare, and limited to subscribers that actively read mailing lists (or see links from external posts). I wasn't aware that I was able to use many of the internal tools until a few months ago, or that I was an eligible voter until I read up on the RFC process. (I assumed there was a small core group of voters) When my php.net account was created, I don't remember seeing notifications/emails about what you're eligible to do, just the fact it was created. (It's been a while, I can't find the first email) There are probably ways to increase awareness - I have no idea what the current state of this is. - One-time notifications about this and other information on contributing when logging into pecl, bugs.php.net, the wiki, or other subdomains (e.g. "Did you know?" dialog boxes) - Links to the same thing included in emails when creating new accounts
-- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

A.L.E.C

6 years ago
On 15.01.2020 21:15, Nikita Popov wrote:
> Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28 > users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I *think* means they can > also vote. > > Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for > voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like > 30. If it's something very controversial, maybe 100. > > People aren't kidding when they say it's easy to get an RFC vote -- but in > reality, there's simply very little interest ;)
This code https://github.com/php/web-wiki/blob/9bc9ba2c3d2d0d26ab510e4959466ab8680b7de7/dokuwiki/lib/plugins/doodle/syntax.php#L226 suggests above statements are false.
-- Aleksander Machniak Kolab Groupware Developer [https://kolab.org] Roundcube Webmail Developer [https://roundcube.net] ---------------------------------------------------- PGP: 19359DC1 # Blog: https://kolabian.wordpress.com

Paul M. Jones

6 years ago
> On Jan 16, 2020, at 06:47, Aleksander Machniak <alec@alec.pl> wrote: > > On 15.01.2020 21:15, Nikita Popov wrote: >> Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28 >> users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I *think* means they can >> also vote. >> >> Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for >> voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like >> 30. If it's something very controversial, maybe 100. >> >> People aren't kidding when they say it's easy to get an RFC vote -- but in >> reality, there's simply very little interest ;) > > This code > https://github.com/php/web-wiki/blob/9bc9ba2c3d2d0d26ab510e4959466ab8680b7de7/dokuwiki/lib/plugins/doodle/syntax.php#L226 > suggests above statements are false.
*That's* the kind of thing I had I mind. Good find! Anyone have ideas on how (or from where) the `$INFO['userinfo']['grps']` values get populated?
-- Paul M. Jones pmjones@pmjones.io http://paul-m-jones.com Modernizing Legacy Applications in PHP https://leanpub.com/mlaphp Solving the N+1 Problem in PHP https://leanpub.com/sn1php

Bastian Schneider

6 years ago
Am 16.01.2020 um 13:52 schrieb Paul M. Jones:
> Anyone have ideas on how (or from where) the `$INFO['userinfo']['grps']` values get populated?
I would guess from the database https://github.com/php/web-wiki/blob/9bc9ba2c3d2d0d26ab510e4959466ab8680b7de7/dokuwiki/lib/plugins/authpdo/auth.php#L208 and https://github.com/php/web-wiki/blob/9bc9ba2c3d2d0d26ab510e4959466ab8680b7de7/dokuwiki/lib/plugins/authpdo/auth.php#L570

Ben Ramsey

6 years ago
> On Jan 16, 2020, at 06:47, Aleksander Machniak <alec@alec.pl> wrote: > > On 15.01.2020 21:15, Nikita Popov wrote: >> Yes, having a php.net account is sufficient. Additionally there are 28 >> users in the wiki in the "phpcvs" group, which I *think* means they can >> also vote. >> >> Based on master.php.net data, the number of people who are eligible for >> voting is approximately 1900. The usual turnout for RFC votes is more like >> 30. If it's something very controversial, maybe 100. >> >> People aren't kidding when they say it's easy to get an RFC vote -- but in >> reality, there's simply very little interest ;) > > This code > https://github.com/php/web-wiki/blob/9bc9ba2c3d2d0d26ab510e4959466ab8680b7de7/dokuwiki/lib/plugins/doodle/syntax.php#L226 > suggests above statements are false.
The code says that wiki users who are in the “admin,” “phpcvs,” or “voting” groups are able to vote. A wiki account shows up in the “phpcvs” group if they login using their master.php.net account: https://github.com/php/web-wiki/blob/9bc9ba2c3d2d0d26ab510e4959466ab8680b7de7/dokuwiki/lib/plugins/phpcvs/auth.php#L44-L62 In that code, you can see that they automatically have the “phpcvs” group applied. According to this code for master.php.net, a user account is considered approved if they have `cvsaccess` set to 1: https://github.com/php/web-master/blob/0e511803a5fdc430897d53e76d4eaeea407f1e1e/manage/users.php#L335-L337 So, all approved php.net accounts are eligible to vote, which is currently 1858 accounts. -Ben