Bringing the 'include' discussion to an end

php.internals

Russell Nelson

21 years ago
Okay, I'm leaving for vacation in 7 hours. I'd like to bring the 'include' discussion to an end. There have been a lot of weak points made, e.g. "Yeah, it's a problem; that's why we documented it". Rather than re-dismiss them, I'll ignore them in favor of addressing the strongest ones. o This problem is decreasing in frequency according to vulnerability reports, so there is no urgency about fixing it. People aren't going to report vulnerabilities when they are persistently told "That's not a bug; that's a feature!" Vulnerability reports are self-selected and thus are not a good sample for even the most rudimentary statistical analysis like "the rate is decreasing." o If you trust user data you are eventually going to get screwed; if not by 'include' then by something else. It's not obvious that 'include' can be convinced to execute remote code. o We're not fixing it. This is simultaneously a weak point and a very strong one. Obviously the maintainer of a codebase can publish code with any number of vulnerabilities in it and nobody can do anything about it other than to stop using the code. On the other hand, the code is still vulnerable, so not fixing it is no solution. o We *are* fixing it, but just not your way. Depending on the exact nature of the fix, this may be a reasonable response. The fix needs to address the problem that 'include' has hidden sharp edges. If it merely offers a way to optionally cover the sharp edge, then it won't fix the problem. Other optional fixes (e.g. allow_url_fopen==false) haven't yet fixed the problem. Why should this one fix it?
-- --My blog is at blog.russnelson.com | If you want to find Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | injustice in economic 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 | affairs, look for the Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | | hand of a legislator.

Shaun Thomas

21 years ago
Russell Nelson wrote:
> Okay, I'm leaving for vacation in 7 hours. I'd like to bring the > 'include' discussion to an end. There have been a lot of weak points > made...
Russell, no offense, but the developers, and many random other people have attempted to stop this conversation many times. This is not a debate, it is not a college speech class, there are no "points" to make. Regardless of whether or not you like the answer, the answer is no. Enjoy your vacation---I know we will. ;)
-- Shaun M. Thomas INN Database Administrator Phone: (309) 743-0812 Fax : (309) 743-0830 Email: sthomas@townnews.com Web : www.townnews.com

David Zülke

21 years ago
Fookin' Jaysus man. It _is_ a feature, _not_ a vulnerability. It starts getting a weak point when stupid high school kiddies who "know PHP well" start coding something ("this boy's as good as a professional, only way cheaper") that introduces a vulnerability because they are drop dead stupid. That's the problem. I don't care about the thousands of idiots out there who are too dumb to avoid security leaks. If they don't know how to code properly - who cares? It's good for you, since the company who hired the idiot back then now knows better and will come to you. And you know how to avoid these security problems. What's the point of this entire discussion for Pete's sake. You can just as well stab your eye out with any fork in the world, and that's not a reason to abolish them, right? The discussion is stupid, and it did nothing but waste helluva lot of bandwidth. - David

Matthew Charles Kavanagh

21 years ago
I can't say I'm quite sure why anyone is continuing to argue against something that's already been denied, especially in a thread about ending the argument. David Zülke wrote:

Russell Nelson

21 years ago
David Zülke writes:
> I don't care about the thousands of idiots out there who are too > dumb to avoid security leaks.
You don't have to be very dumb to create a whopping big security hole. It should be *hard* to create a security lapse which causes hostile code to run on your server. 'include' makes it trivial.
> The discussion is stupid, and it did nothing but waste helluva lot > of bandwidth.
Actually ... this discussion established firmly that PHP's insecurity is designed-in as a _feature_. Anybody reading the archives will understand that PHP and security will forever be strangers to each other. Sorry, Rasmus, for calling a spade a spade, but it needs to be said even if you don't like it.
-- --My blog is at blog.russnelson.com | If you want to find Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | injustice in economic 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 | affairs, look for the Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | | hand of a legislator.