removing bundled libmysql

(Marcus Börger)

23 years ago

Hello Sterling,

Saturday, June 21, 2003, 5:43:30 PM, you wrote:

SH> Hey,

SH> I'm putting this message out as a feeler.  I'm going to go ahead and
SH> remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree.  This won't affect
SH> the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with
SH> PHP anymore.  This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch
SH> to using the GPL for their client libraries as well.  Linkage will still
SH> be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23
SH> library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken.

SH> Speak now, or forever hold your peace. ;-)

Please disable ext/mysql by default then, too.

--
Best regards,
Marcus                            mailto:helly@php.net

Sterling Hughes

23 years ago

Yep, that's my plan :-)

-Sterling

On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 11:55, Marcus Börger wrote:

> Hello Sterling,
>
> Saturday, June 21, 2003, 5:43:30 PM, you wrote:
>
> SH> Hey,
>
> SH> I'm putting this message out as a feeler.  I'm going to go ahead and
> SH> remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree.  This won't affect
> SH> the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with
> SH> PHP anymore.  This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch
> SH> to using the GPL for their client libraries as well.  Linkage will still
> SH> be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23
> SH> library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken.
>
> SH> Speak now, or forever hold your peace. ;-)
>
> Please disable ext/mysql by default then, too.

--
"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder,
but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
- Bjarne Stroustrup

Ilia A.

23 years ago

On June 21, 2003 11:55 am, Marcus Börger wrote:

> Please disable ext/mysql by default then, too.

Please don't, if the configure script can find the mysql library needed by the
extension on the system I see no reason why not to enable to mysql extension
by default. Given the large number of php + mysql users, it'll surely reduce
the amount of frustration users will experience once they realize their PHP
no longer has a default MySQL extension.

Ilia

Wei He

23 years ago

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Ilia A. wrote:

> On June 21, 2003 11:55 am, Marcus Börger wrote:
> > Please disable ext/mysql by default then, too.
>
> Please don't, if the configure script can find the mysql library needed by the
> extension on the system I see no reason why not to enable to mysql extension
> by default. Given the large number of php + mysql users, it'll surely reduce
> the amount of frustration users will experience once they realize their PHP
> no longer has a default MySQL extension.

PHP RPM users will have to rebuild PHP from source RPM in order to
use MySQL 4.x libraries if it is bundled. Am I right?

And you know building PHP source RPM is a huge task as one have to
install a lot of dependent RPMs for unused modules. And the compiling
takes long time.

Wei He

Ilia A.

23 years ago

Most distributions I am aware of already ship with compiled & installed MySQL
libraries. So, in many cases unless you seek to upgrade (or downgrade if 4.X
libs are in place and you need 3.X libs) you won't need to do a thing. Big
distros such as rhat will probably already have compiled modules for you to
load and even if you do need to compile the MySQL lib compile + source of
ext/mysql + linking takes no more then 20-30 seconds on a moderately up to
date computer.

Ilia

On June 21, 2003 12:22 pm, Wei He wrote:

Wei He

23 years ago

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Ilia A. wrote:

> Most distributions I am aware of already ship with compiled & installed MySQL
> libraries. So, in many cases unless you seek to upgrade (or downgrade if 4.X
> libs are in place and you need 3.X libs) you won't need to do a thing. Big
> distros such as rhat will probably already have compiled modules for you to
> load and even if you do need to compile the MySQL lib compile + source of
> ext/mysql + linking takes no more then 20-30 seconds on a moderately up to
> date computer.

Compile PHP source RPM in RedHat for 20-30 seconds?

I'm using RedHat. There are php, php-mysql, php-imap, php-ldap, php-snmp, ...
And the source RPM will configure and make twice, one for CGI, another for
Apache module. I am thinking all the way, since CLI and Apache module can
be built togethter, why not add a CGI? But it doesn't matter at all.

Wei He

Derick Rethans

23 years ago

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Ilia A. wrote:

> On June 21, 2003 11:55 am, Marcus Börger wrote:
> > Please disable ext/mysql by default then, too.
>
> Please don't, if the configure script can find the mysql library needed by the
> extension on the system I see no reason why not to enable to mysql extension
> by default. Given the large number of php + mysql users, it'll surely reduce
> the amount of frustration users will experience once they realize their PHP
> no longer has a default MySQL extension.

Our policy is not to enable any extension by default that relies on an
external library. If the MySQL guys think that they should make it much
harder to use because of their license change that should not mean that
we need to change our policies because of them.

Derick

--
"Interpreting what the GPL actually means is a job best left to those
that read the future by examining animal entrails."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derick Rethans                                 http://derickrethans.nl/
International PHP Magazine                          http://php-mag.net/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wez Furlong

23 years ago

+1

Wei He

23 years ago

I think it would be a good thing. Many time I have to recompile PHP to use
it with MySQL to avoid charset warnings.

Wei He

Derick Rethans

23 years ago

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Sterling Hughes wrote:

> I'm putting this message out as a feeler.  I'm going to go ahead and
> remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree.  This won't affect
> the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with
> PHP anymore.  This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch
> to using the GPL for their client libraries as well.  Linkage will still
> be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23
> library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken.

+1

Derick

--
"Interpreting what the GPL actually means is a job best left to those
that read the future by examining animal entrails."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derick Rethans                                 http://derickrethans.nl/
International PHP Magazine                          http://php-mag.net/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sascha Schumann

23 years ago

> I'm putting this message out as a feeler.  I'm going to go ahead and
> remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree.  This won't affect
> the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with
> PHP anymore.  This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch
> to using the GPL for their client libraries as well.  Linkage will still
> be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23
> library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken.

Go ahead.

There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a
license exemption. The only consequence is that we should
not steer users into their hands through simplified
deployment.

Actually, we should warn users of MySQL 3 that they won't be
able to use new versions of MySQL under the same conditions,
and that they should better look at Interbase/PostgreSQL.

- Sascha

Zak Greant

23 years ago

On June 21, 2003 10:14, Sascha Schumann wrote:
...

>     There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a
>     license exemption. The only consequence is that we should
>     not steer users into their hands through simplified
>     deployment.

What!?! Given that I am the one working on the exception right now
I would very much like to hear where that little rumour came from! :)

Cheers!
--zak

Shane Caraveo

23 years ago

Sascha Schumann wrote:

>
>     There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a
>     license exemption. The only consequence is that we should
>     not steer users into their hands through simplified
>     deployment.
>

Derick Rethans wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Andi Gutmans wrote:
>
>
>>By the way, was there an official MySQL announcement about the move

to GPL?

>
>
> Not really... atleast nobody send something to a PHP list about it. I
> was highly suprised when Arjen told me at a conference, and it looks
> like they tried to hide it or something.
>
> Derick
>

I got to speak with Zak at some length about the license change, and
while I don't really agree with GPL in general, I can easily understand
why they want to change the license.  Anyway, I've known about the
license change for some time and don't have any impression of anything
being hidden, more that it is just not finalized yet.  Second, I know
that Zak is struggling with this issue trying to come up with a clean
and fair license that allows for projects like PHP.  Of course, until
the license is done there is no guarauntee that PHP will be exempted,
but I'm willing to give them the benefit of time to finish it.

Shane

Georg Richter

23 years ago

On Saturday 21 June 2003 18:14, Sascha Schumann wrote:

>     There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a
>     license exemption. The only consequence is that we should
>     not steer users into their hands through simplified
>     deployment.

rumors from #php.de ? :)

Georg

David Axmark

23 years ago

On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 18:14, Sascha Schumann wrote:

> > I'm putting this message out as a feeler.  I'm going to go ahead and
> > remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree.  This won't affect
> > the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with
> > PHP anymore.  This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch
> > to using the GPL for their client libraries as well.  Linkage will still
> > be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23
> > library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken.
>
>     Go ahead.
>
>     There are rumours that MySQL AB does not want to provide a
>     license exemption.

Absolutely untrue. I am very sure about this since we have made a
decision about this issue. And I am the one responsible inside MySQL
AB/Inc.

I just myself who have not had time to do the legwork. Investment
negotiations take a LOT of time since there are a lot of things to now.
And I have had the bad fortune to be sick a a couple of times this
spring/summer and that has screwed up my timetable significantly.

We plan to do a generic exception making our GPL client linkable with
all licenses approved by OpenSource.org. And a extra thing for OpenSSL
since that does not pass.

But this is a thing that makes our lawyers (even if they are GPL
trained by now) unsure about how to write in. And a lawyer needs EXACT
text.

Zak is the one who is now working with our lawyers on a actual text.

>     The only consequence is that we should
>     not steer users into their hands through simplified
>     deployment.

I see nothing wrong with our model. We are trying to make money on Free
Software but if are free there is never any question that MySQL is also
free.

And if you are trying to make money with propreietary software we want
a share. This has given us a good growth ground so far and we are now
close to doubling (we can not handle more) our development team again.
And all the results are available under the GPL!

This has lead to a lot of interest from the business community that the
BSD license model have not got.

>     Actually, we should warn users of MySQL 3 that they won't be
>     able to use new versions of MySQL under the same conditions,
>     and that they should better look at Interbase/PostgreSQL.

Well, if they are free we are free. If not I think they can pay us for
a license.

I see nothing wrong with that.

/David

PS: If you have questions about this you can email me directly. Just
understand that my email load is

Ilia A.

23 years ago

On June 21, 2003 11:43 am, Sterling Hughes wrote:

> Hey,
>
> I'm putting this message out as a feeler.  I'm going to go ahead and
> remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree.  This won't affect
> the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with
> PHP anymore.  This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch
> to using the GPL for their client libraries as well.  Linkage will still
> be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23
> library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken.
>

+1 The non-bunbled lib for 3.X series in most cases is a later (better?)
version then the one distributed with PHP by default.

Ilia

Andi Gutmans

23 years ago

At 11:43 AM 6/21/2003 -0400, Sterling Hughes wrote:

>Hey,
>
>I'm putting this message out as a feeler.  I'm going to go ahead and
>remove the mysql library from the PHP source tree.  This won't affect
>the extension, it simply means we won't be bundling the *library* with
>PHP anymore.  This is in a large part due to MySQL's decision to switch
>to using the GPL for their client libraries as well.  Linkage will still
>be available, but we can't ship the GPL library, and the MySQL 3.2.23
>library can't connect to MySQL 4.1 servers, rendering it broken.
>
>Speak now, or forever hold your peace. ;-)

+1 from me. It's their loss more than it is ours.

Andi

Andi Gutmans

23 years ago

By the way, was there an official MySQL announcement about the move to GPL?

Andi

At 08:17 PM 6/21/2003 +0200, Andi Gutmans wrote:

Derick Rethans

23 years ago

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Andi Gutmans wrote:

> By the way, was there an official MySQL announcement about the move to GPL?

Not really... atleast nobody send something to a PHP list about it. I
was highly suprised when Arjen told me at a conference, and it looks
like they tried to hide it or something.

Derick

--
"Interpreting what the GPL actually means is a job best left to those
that read the future by examining animal entrails."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derick Rethans                                 http://derickrethans.nl/
International PHP Magazine                          http://php-mag.net/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Georg Richter

23 years ago

On Saturday 21 June 2003 20:58, Andi Gutmans wrote:

> By the way, was there an official MySQL announcement about the move to GPL?
>

Yes they did, but it was not the title of the announcement. :)

Georg

Andi Gutmans

23 years ago

At 10:30 PM 6/21/2003 +0200, Georg Richter wrote:

>On Saturday 21 June 2003 20:58, Andi Gutmans wrote:
> > By the way, was there an official MySQL announcement about the move to GPL?
> >
>
>Yes they did, but it was not the title of the announcement. :)

Do you have a URL? I couldn't find it on the MySQL.com site.

ANdi

Georg Richter

23 years ago

On Saturday 21 June 2003 23:44, Andi Gutmans wrote:

Hi Andi,

> Do you have a URL? I couldn't find it on the MySQL.com site.

check http://www.mysql.com/news/article-81.html -> Read more: MySQL 4.0 In A
Nutshell

Regards

Georg

Georg Richter

23 years ago

Hi all,

as maintainer of ext/mysql and ext/mysqli I'm standing between php and mysql,
and I spent a lot of time on both extensions, so don't ask me :)

Currently bundled libmysql prevents users to violate license. If you need an
external lib, you normally download latest stable, which is 4.0.x and is GPL.
According to the MySQL license, you need a commercial license when using PHP
4 with MySQL 4.x, cause PHP license isn't a) OSI approved and b) GPL
compatible.

We have the same problem with ext/mysqli which isn't compatible to GPL, and
will be removed therefore from PHP 5 beta.

The combination with MySQL was one of the reasons that PHP growed up to one
of the best and most used scripting languages. PHP was one reason, that MySQL
became one the most popular OpenSource databases. So I ask you, is it really
necessary, that we try to force a decision.

Zak is already working on license problems, incompatibility and possible
solutions. Wouldn't it be better to give him and MySQL AB a little bit more
time?

Just my 2 cents

Georg

Zak Greant

23 years ago

On June 21, 2003 14:17, Georg Richter wrote:
...

> Zak is already working on license problems, incompatibility and
> possible solutions. Wouldn't it be better to give him and MySQL AB a
> little bit more time?

I had hoped to have the exception done over a week ago, but there
have been a few complications involved in getting a suitable exception
authored.

Cheers!
--zak

Mike Robinson

23 years ago

Georg Richter wrote:

> According to the MySQL license, you need a commercial license
> when using PHP 4 with MySQL 4.x, cause PHP license isn't
> a) OSI approved and b) GPL compatible.

Unbelievable.
Guess the postgres guys are licking their chops over this.

> We have the same problem with ext/mysqli which isn't compatible
> to GPL, and will be removed therefore from PHP 5 beta.

Unbelievable.

> Zak is already working on license problems, incompatibility and possible
> solutions. Wouldn't it be better to give him and MySQL AB a
> little bit more time?

A little bit more time to do what, blow its foot off just below
the neck?

Un-fscking-believable.

Regards
Mike Robinson

James Cox

23 years ago

> Wouldn't it be better to give [Zak] and MySQL AB a
> little bit more time?

I think this is the most sensible idea posted so far. The notion that we
*don't* lose out if we unbundle by default is wrong -- we're going to
have so many "my MySQL is broken, HELP!!!" support requests, it's going
to be untrue. Some PHP developers have had the attitude that users don't
matter. Well, they do.. So lets just keep them onside and not make their
life even harder unless we have to.

-- james

Olivier Hill

23 years ago

James Cox wrote:

>
> I think this is the most sensible idea posted so far. The notion that we
> *don't* lose out if we unbundle by default is wrong -- we're going to
> have so many "my MySQL is broken, HELP!!!" support requests, it's going

I completely agree on that. A long time ago, when I started to learn PHP
and MySQL, I compiled from source with the instructions to do configure
--with-mysql. I had no idea then on how to configure PHP, but the
instructions were easy and hassle-free. If we have to remove the bundled
librairy, the build process for "newbies" won't be that easy anymore. I
think it's more a "MySQL loss" than a PHP one, but anyways, we should
still try to have a special agreement with MySQL AB.

Nevertherless, we have to update the PHP manual accordingly to advise
users clearly!

Just my 2¢,
Oliver

Sterling Hughes

23 years ago

> Zak is already working on license problems, incompatibility and possible
> solutions. Wouldn't it be better to give him and MySQL AB a little bit more
> time?
>

What would've been better if MySQL provided a suitable option before
they changed their licenses to the GPL.  This is MySQL's mess not ours,
and its theirs to cleanup, if they so desire.  MySQL certainly wouldn't
rest their release cycle on undefined PHP license changes which were
promised in an indeterminate period of time.

I just want to add here, that I'm pro-mysql.  I don't particularly like
how the change was done, or the fact that the MySQL library is GPL.
That said, I'm certainly not trying to dictate their licensing policy,
I'm a programmer, not a lawyer or business person.  I also have full
confidence that Zak (and MySQL AB too ;) will work out a license
exception that is suitable for PHP's needs.

Further, keep in mind that this is a beta.  Its still a good 6-9 months
(at least) before a final PHP5 release.  If MySQL provides a suitable
solution in the interim, I would frankly be overjoyed to re-add mysqli.
As for debundling libmysql, well, it really makes sense that it happens
regardless.  First of all, I seriously doubt that a suitable exception
will exist (ie, enabling it by default).  Further, redistributing an old
version of the library that doesn't work with MySQL 4.1, is back
asswards.  If users want MySQL, they can explicitly enable it, and be
aware what version they are using.

-Sterling

--
"Programming today is a race between software engineers stirring to
build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying
to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning."
- Unknown

Per Lundberg

23 years ago

On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 22:17, Georg Richter wrote:

> Zak is already working on license problems, incompatibility and possible
> solutions. Wouldn't it be better to give him and MySQL AB a little bit more
> time?

That would be a good thing.  What I think should be clearly stated is
that it is a *very* *bad* *idea* to get a PHP-specific agreement with
MySQL.  In other words, getting an agreement that states that it is
legal to link the MySQL libraries into PHP but not into other software
in general.  This is a discriminatory license that should not be
accepted because it is contrary to the very principles of Open Source
and Free Software (since it would make derivate works of PHP unable to
use the MySQL extension).

--
Best regards,

Per Lundberg / Capio ApS
Phone: +46-18-4186040
Fax: +46-18-4186049
Web: http://www.nobolt.com

Peter Neuman

23 years ago

Hello,

"Sterling Hughes" <sterling@bumblebury.com>:

> Speak now, or forever hold your peace. ;-)

-1

what have you actually always for problems with the GPL licenses?
simply the license changes and good is, but please does NOT delete
things only because it one would like it means it is not for the
license good!

Thanks
Peter Neuman

Derick Rethans

23 years ago

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003, Peter Neuman wrote:

> what have you actually always for problems with the GPL licenses?
> simply the license changes and good is, but please does NOT delete
> things only because it one would like it means it is not for the
> license good!

So you're suggesting we should violate a license?

Derick

--
"Interpreting what the GPL actually means is a job best left to those
that read the future by examining animal entrails."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derick Rethans                                 http://derickrethans.nl/
International PHP Magazine                          http://php-mag.net/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cristiano Duarte

23 years ago

+1

Cristiano Duarte

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